AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And the uses of history, as opposed to actual history. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And they probably still are. CYNTHIA CARR: Wait, it was a group—it was Helix and the Hemispheric? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But, in order for us to work, we decided that you couldn't—we couldn't work because we wouldn't—you wouldn't—you'd make a set of decisions and not know who was going to show up the next week. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And so, what is—it starts out by saying, "What is Reagan"—it gives these stats. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I think I—in an earlier conversation, I said to you that when my mother was on her death bed, my sister and I were having a conversation about whether she thought my mother was a Party member —and she said that she thought that my father was the political one and my mother was just along for the ride. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I've done about 20. So the one that you have on your website—there's a portrait of Kerry, a man named Kerry. And we basically made a two, you know, a front and back cover and then the inside spreads which were the editorial pages. It's like—and there's no way to gauge the effect of it. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay, and so you were part of that first demo on Wall Street? And I said, "Sure." AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And they've—they fell down around the same debates of assent and resistance. So I feel like —this work was momentary but also prescient. And I've had some people who've asked—invited me to host Flash Collectives become very concerned during that part of it. And even the Artforum thing. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. I wanted it to have a bifurcated audience. Yes. And, when I was standing in front of it that night, looking at the Silence = Death neon sign over it, and I just—I remember thinking it's like—you know, "AIDS activism is open for business," is what—I didn't really get the neon sign. CYNTHIA CARR: So how—what was the process of getting Silence = Death, you know, into—like integrating it into ACT UP, and saying let's make T-shirts that say that and let's do—. We pasted it around New York. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, it then chose the name, but it was still an open committee in ACT UP. But imagine a world in which there was—there wasn't a deregulated media on the brink of the 24/7 news cycle. Subscribe to receive a copy in your mailbox. It was when we were assembling the show. I basically staked this idea, I took financial responsibility for it, and the way that sniping works is you choose the amount of coverage you want, so we had many conversations about which neighborhoods and then you pay for duration in the locations, and so we decided we wanted a two week presence for the posters so they, Jim Rogers, came back to us and said, "We will need 900 posters to give two weeks coverage in the areas you decided on, which was East Village, SoHo, West Village, Chelsea, and Hell's Kitchen, and for two week's coverage we'll need 1,800 posters, because if it gets washed out or someone wheatpastes over it, so—," and it was roughly the same price to snipe as it was to print, and I don't have my journal, but I think it was a $1.25 each to print, and maybe $1.50 or, $1.35 or $1.50 to wheatpaste. I like to let it fall apart to experiment with the parameters of who's in the room, to get a sense of its devolution before I reassemble it. And they have that—a cross on it that's like a red cross, the shape of the red cross. Avram agreed to share his insights on working in collectives like ACT-UP and GRAN FURY, as well as working in public spaces with broad, non-art audiences. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was done as a sticker to pass out and sticker along the parade route. We pushed it into all of these public health spaces but also schools in New York. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's long. Because you don't know, even with people you are in a—you're in a collective with them for years. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's not a good thing to never talk about IV drug use with regard to HIV/AIDS. The most useful thing is to be set free in its brains, to understand its context, to hear the back stories, to figure out how that applies to you. [Affirmative.] AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The children who were born after the Revolution were called Decembrists, I think? That part of, you know, just as you're entering that part of lower Manhattan traffic is really tight, so it was very easy to make it feel like a lot of people were there, but there were not that many people there. I used to go to games at Shea with a couple of gay male friends, so I know that there are many gay fans, actually. I think fundraising—it was Dee Finch. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, because those drugs are still expensive. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Well, no, we didn't—the converse is true. It was very old school. And filled it with data and we felt like these were the stories that were not getting reported. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So we felt like this—the dick didn't get the airing it deserved. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And pretty much anyone could come, and the meetings were sprawling and kind of messy, and there were sometimes as many as 20 people in them. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —she is kneeled on the floor, right? There were many conversations within the collective as to how involved we wanted to be in the art world, and the ways in which we would do that. I was told that somebody at the United States Information Agency had tipped off the director of the Biennale, Carandente, that we had a—potentially blasphemous image in our display. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So it became the sort of—and Kissing Doesn't Kill was when we were offered that commission, we wanted to further consider the question of the same-sex kiss, and in fact expand it to talk about saliva transmissibility, which was wildly controversial at that point. He was the person who Oliver Johnston invited. We were nominated, but I knew that some of us knew Annie Philbin as well. I think so many people felt embattled in those years and—. And the name was so Mark— that I associated it with him. So to talk about Silence = Death without those sets of social context makes no sense because it would have functioned completely differently in another social context and I don't think that you—whenever I speak about Silence = Death, one of the things I say about it is that it was designed by a six-person collective. I know this is a period where people didn't want to get tested. So we wanted to signal to the lesbian and gay community in a very clear way, but there were only a handful of icons that did that. CYNTHIA CARR: Now, you formed the group to do that window. I mean, this is some of the same imagery fromRead My Lips, and there you ran into this—I had no idea that this sort of thing was happening, where these posters were—This happened in Chicago. People were declaring themselves during this emergency—. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. And I said, "Yeah. CYNTHIA CARR: Mm-hmm, [Affirmative.] AIDS Kills Women, that project was in there. I would probably say, it would be more accurate to say, that Gran Fury could never have existed without the research wing of ACT UP, so, in a way, we were wholly dependent on activists, researchers, policy people, journalists, healthcare workers. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Peter—I—Peter Staley has admitted that he trademarked the name. We assembled the collective and my question to them was "okay, we're able to go into the New Museum and participate in the Draftsmen's Congress, but what does that mean? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But not all of them. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But it was about the strategic political use of humor. Really. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —New York as a bill in Congress. And, in fact, many fact sheets from ACT UP used the LED text that we assembled for the window. !, the East Village artist from the Pyramid Club, painted the other windows. And the truth is that we did not know the answer to that question, and I think that there will be no more Silence = Death posters if everyone thinks you have to have a movement behind whatever it is you're doing in order to validate it. She worked at National Starch Products in New Jersey, and in order to get out of the house she decided, "Well I can do this and this is kind of fun," so she decided to become a career scientist and eventually got her doctorate in biochemistry and she did cancer research. Who dies?" And I was on the waitlist; there was 90 slots and I was number 60, and I might've gotten in, but—, AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: 60 slots and I was 90, correct. But the question was, "Did we really want to appear to be advocating the military?". The constructing of the show went on for a full year, and during that period I had the breakup of a 23-year relationship. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We got all the boxes [laughs], yeah. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: GLAAD was, but they weren't focused on it. CYNTHIA CARR: And how old were you at that point? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Well, that was a very interesting project and I learned a ton from this one. INTERVIEW Soy. I felt like in the midst of this crisis where people's lives were on the line, once you create the idea that something is being done about it and cultural production does that, we were—we were already being, as we were making it, extolled as these, you know, this voice of resistance. And he didn't want the collective to dissolve. It was based on Radical Faery—a spellcasting where we did little medallions that said, "Believe it; racism, homophobia, sexism will end," and on the other side was the number for the White House and said, "Call George Bush and demand an end to the AIDS crisis," and we—and I knew that when you're—you know, during a Gay Pride march people love swag, so they were literally knocking down the police barricades to get these necklaces and put them on, and I was like, "Okay, so we're going to have, like"—I think we made 20,000 of them—"20,000 people will be spellcasting for homophobia to end." And I think that's possibly why I was puzzled by some of the responses within the art world. Because I feel without changing it at all it's still true. The collectives change. CYNTHIA CARR: —and Lola Flash. So that was my crowd. Like you'd think I was born in Soviet Russia and the village was burned to the ground. Was Visual AIDS involved with that? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But we didn't want to—we wanted to put our—we wanted to seize their voice and put our news in place of it. Mark Reed, who's from the Illuminator—he started the Illuminator project—and I are both artists-in-residence at the Hemispheric Institute this year, so I thought it'd be a great way to mount this project. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The working title is Silence Was, Silence Is: Remaking the Meaning of AIDS and it's a deconstruction of the work that's used to represent AIDS, the work of the Silence = Death collective and of Gran Fury, and it's a sort of a deeper dive into the political questions that drove the work into being, as opposed to just talking about the work itself and how it appeared. And Mark Simpson and Don Moffett worked with the women's committee on the AIDS and Women Day. Okay. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I guess it's called ''Footnote to Howl.''. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And they subsequently became part of the Read My Lips project in subsequent projects of postcards and T-shirts. Avram is a dark-haired, solemn man with sharp eyes. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And in the morning it was all on the ground. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Oliver was on the outreach committee and so was Chris Lione. CYNTHIA CARR: Was it the Silence = Death Collective that was part of it, or none—. "You cannot say this. And Loring McAlpin wrote the final section, which was—I think it is called "Future Sex Acts." [Affirmative.]. Diana’s also the creator… So there are institutional uses for being able to say, "Okay, here is the story, the dominant narrative of HIV/AIDS goes something like this: an embattled community assembled itself, fought power structures, and protease inhibitors were the result of that and the death toll went down radically." If you saw a sticker, you would put another one next to it, and it was right at the beginning of ATMs—that was a new thing. So, we did—ACT UP did quite a few kiss-ins at McSorley's. I thought there was something really pernicious and weird about that. CYNTHIA CARR: Wow. CYNTHIA CARR: Charles, Oliver, Chris, and Brian? It was in response to national epidemiology that was pointing to a burgeoning heterosexual crisis. Maybe just for the purpose of this, because the focus is AIDS activism and art, is there another one that you maybe would want to describe and talk about that had to do with AIDS—. And I think that the challenge here was to explain what undetectability is. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So the trajectory is very clear, and I think looking back at it for people who only knew me through my political work within AIDS activism who don't know any of those other things, that there's this whole missing piece of the story that led up to it, which was a life of institutional critique, politically and from a creative perspective. Avram Finkelstein : biography – Avram Finkelstein is an artist, writer, gay rights activist, and member of the AIDS art collective Gran Fury. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Late 1984 [1985–AF], sorry. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But it's about class and race and gender. But they're the two lives that I ended up having. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: You only know about the six. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And Lola Flash, the photographer. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. CYNTHIA CARR: It's really—I, you know, I'm just thinking about this. I so often—when I'm—during a Q&A after a talk I hear people of my generation, sort of a lot of hand-wringing about how disengaged younger people are, and that is not my experience of it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No we didn't, and the other thing that I took responsibility for doing was to contact the press and to try and get it placed in advance of it going up. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And men—many men, all the men in my affinity group, were involved in clinic defense with the women in ACT UP who were doing it. Were you living together? CYNTHIA CARR: Right. In fact, as I was writing my introductory email, Mark said to me, "You shouldn't really"—I made the sweeping generality, the thing that I said to you about the boundary, the wall between HIV-positive and HIV-negative as being a lie of the HIV-negative mind, and he said, "You shouldn't really write that because there are a lot of people who will disagree with you on that." And in both cases, they're identical and they split in the same place, so I became—as I was—after my dad died and I was thinking about Don and looking at my palm, I started to think that that split was AIDS. So—but then we decided to—as a concession, to ask the funding agency to—the funders to pay for a poster version of it, which we would donate to ACT UP—to use as a fundraiser to work against pharmaceutical greed. So Avram, again, say your name and spell it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And then Mark sort of diplomatically suggested, based on my recollection, that we would have to discuss it as a collective. She got a copy to Bill Bahlman from the Lavender Hill Mob, who then gave it to me. They were—and the entire scroll, like a three-foot by nine-foot piece of paper, was filled like that, like within 30 seconds. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And it sort of made us feel somewhat cowed about working outside of our own context —. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And it was—and over the window—the New Museum at the time was on Lower Broadway. I just completed one at Yale which was unbelievable, I think. I mean, I—again, I've been thinking so much about these questions, about the meaning of this work, and to have it held up as an example of political efficacy is—robs people of the opportunity to figure out how—what lessons might be learned from it that might apply to themselves going forward. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: There was a people living with AIDS—at the time we called it People With AIDS Issues Day. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was placed on Houston Street, right above—right next to the Pop Shop billboard. Testing before Interview Number 3 on April—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: This was all within April and May of 1988. But, at the time during—when we were doing the catalogue, I was in the middle of a 23-year relationship dissolving. And we wheatpasted there with ladders, all of Gran Fury and I think Maria Maggenti came and helped us as well and maybe someone else from my affinity group. And it was literally a couple of hundred bucks. He was one of the biggest targets, and I loathed him, yes. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So during the actual opening we had nothing on the wall. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: This is 1988 when we were doing this. And somebody just raised their hand and said, "Public bathrooms.". AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I sort of see a connection between the self-deprecating humor of the Yiddish theater—and a lot of this sort of queer in-jokes that came out of ACT UP. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's the shape of a cross. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And we were doing ACT UP. CYNTHIA CARR: With Karen Finley, and yeah. It basically talks about the Catholic Church's relationships to the way—the ways in which people think about their bodies, and in reproductive rights, and then sexual autonomy. Some of them were out. So I was beginning to do that kind of freelance stuff. The home of Avram Finkelstein. CYNTHIA CARR: Actual—House of Representatives—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: There were people who—people had many different responses to the AIDS crisis. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: He was the Commissioner of Health in New York—. They didn't ask any questions about it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I, you know, as you can tell if you're listening to this from the waver in my voice, I became a crier. I said, "Well, what are some of the public spaces," you know, "I mean, we're thinking about doing something in the streets and we could do something in the subway, and people have bodies in the streets and in the subways, but what are some of the places in which people expect to be thinking about their bodies?" CYNTHIA CARR: I keep thinking it'll happen here, all this—the heroin use now in all these rural communities that's become like an epidemic of, you know, heroin overdoses or whatever, but—it'll start to happen there. And I think it was June 1st or 5th. And since then, people have picked up on it. And they told him that he could begin—I don't know if it was his idea or theirs, but I believe it was his idea. The first two women's images were only for the street announcement of this demonstration. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And so, I contacted Frank Wagner, who was the curator. And it became such a controversy in the New York community and in the New York press that people were taking sides in the gossip columns over whether or not it was appropriate to be chasing Stephen Joseph down in this way. So I had a camera with me, it was the first camera I ever owned. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: They were Xeroxed flyers. And he said, "Well, we should really spell those out." AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: All of the ceramics were smashed. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And that was—that was done during the campaign to pressure the CDC to change the definition of AIDS. He asked if he could ask artists to do the announcement posters and the flyers. THE SHED OPEN CALL Hyperallergic. The other one worked at the NSA. It was very weird because it turned out all of my close friends in high school, half of them were gay. And then we did our last piece, ''Good—Goodbye and Good Luck.'' AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And it really captured my imagination; it was during the height of these anti-art questions. I think there was paper put up—. There's no way around it. CYNTHIA CARR: It was just a C.R. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So he gave me a baby Lenin pin when I entered seventh grade, and so that's my portrait of him is a photograph of that baby Lenin pin. ", AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And, you know, I started like pointing out all these things, after which she finally said, "Well, actually, now that you mention it ,she told me if they come for us, tell them you don't know anything about the copies of The Daily Worker in the closet. Now did you stay in Boston after you graduated? We zeroed in on what became When a Government Turns Its Back On Its People, Is It Civil War? But it—so, we debuted it. And then when you went there you intended to start as a film major when you went there? But he seemed coyly apologetic about it, or slightly embarrassed. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Possibly. CYNTHIA CARR: You already the two women from ACT UP. Home, however, has a different AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So it's a—it's a reference to our collective in flux, in dissolution. David said, "I think I'm going to apply for the Museum School," and I made sure I was there. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I wanted to use the word "genocide" in connection with him. . And I gave them as acronyms to the person who was typesetting it. So he was encouraging you in your art thing, and you had told me before that they even arranged for you to have a teacher, a special teacher? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So that it was sort of a shot across the bow, like in the same way that Bill Olander wanted to send a shot across the bow of the art world by inviting ACT UP to do a window installation. [Affirmative.]. And he said, "Yes." It was a very pitched moment. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I believe that to be a testimony to collectivity. So we used that as a way to talk about whose history survives, so in the yellow band it says, "Whose history survives?" I feel like all of it is a part of this process in the same way that the Silence = Death image belonged to every single person who responded to its call. It goes on with globalization struggles. And what can I do for you?" CYNTHIA CARR: What did that piece look like? I mean the Student Mobilization Committee. It's just the things that we don't talk about are the things to pay attention to, and I think that that's where I have become so obsessed with sort of using the dominant narrative to explode the dominant narrative and pave the way for these other counter-narratives which are—if you want to think of it in terms of the HIV as a metaphor, these are the reservoirs in the body politic where HIV stigma has been hidden, and if we're spending all this energy trying to eradicate HIV from the body in an effort to end the AIDS crisis, it could end tomorrow and people would still be in jail, and there would still be decades of case law to keep them there. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: They said, "Make a—make a newspaper and hand it out on the street corners. I think she minored in microbiology, and she did cancer research throughout the '60's and then did pediatrics research in Meadowbrook Hospital until she retired. And I told the rest of the collective that story. The original poster that that—the—there were three versions of it; one was aimed at Stephen Joseph, one was at aimed at Ed Koch, and they were smaller—I think they were eight and a half by 11 or possibly 11 x 17. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay. 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